Psychoanalytic Therapists in Saint Louis, MO

Photo of Bayla M. Myer, PhD, Psychologist
Bayla M. Myer
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63128
I have extensive training in behavioral, cognitive, insight oriented, and psychoanalytic techniques of therapy so I can customize the approach to the needs of the person, couple, or family.
I have over thirty-five years of experience treating individuals, couples, and families dealing with depression, anxiety disorders, marital discord, and family dysfunction. Changing oneself, therefore changing others around you, can lead to happier relationships. Understanding and insight can raise self-esteem. I provide a safe, confidential, and trusting environment to explore one's feelings and consider options to produce different and improved results. Video and telehealth sessions have been added to accommodate the COVID-19 safety protocols.
I have extensive training in behavioral, cognitive, insight oriented, and psychoanalytic techniques of therapy so I can customize the approach to the needs of the person, couple, or family.
I have over thirty-five years of experience treating individuals, couples, and families dealing with depression, anxiety disorders, marital discord, and family dysfunction. Changing oneself, therefore changing others around you, can lead to happier relationships. Understanding and insight can raise self-esteem. I provide a safe, confidential, and trusting environment to explore one's feelings and consider options to produce different and improved results. Video and telehealth sessions have been added to accommodate the COVID-19 safety protocols.
(314) 828-2354 View (314) 828-2354
Photo of Kristy Snelson, MA, BSN, LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Kristy Snelson
Licensed Professional Counselor, MA, BSN, LPC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63146
Waitlist for new clients
My approach is from a psychoanalytic and cognitive behavioral base.
I feel stuck and I don't know what's going on. I hear this everyday from clients and I've experienced this as well. Trauma controls our career choices, our partners, and other important dynamics of our lives. I service clients who deal with childhood and adulthood trauma. I also assist clients who struggle with feeling stuck and difficulty finding their purpose. Clients I work with desire an emotional and a mental release. I also work with clients who desire to grow spiritually through use of biblical knowledge if requested.
My approach is from a psychoanalytic and cognitive behavioral base.
I feel stuck and I don't know what's going on. I hear this everyday from clients and I've experienced this as well. Trauma controls our career choices, our partners, and other important dynamics of our lives. I service clients who deal with childhood and adulthood trauma. I also assist clients who struggle with feeling stuck and difficulty finding their purpose. Clients I work with desire an emotional and a mental release. I also work with clients who desire to grow spiritually through use of biblical knowledge if requested.
(314) 492-1489 View (314) 492-1489
Photo of Evelyn A Witten, MEd, LPC, NCC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Evelyn A Witten
Licensed Professional Counselor, MEd, LPC, NCC
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63105
She has completed post graduate certification and training through the Saint Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
Making a decision to enter therapy is often a step taken after much thought and consideration. Evelyn's professional experience is framed by a philosophy of trust and respect in the collaborative relationship. Clients may enter treatment at a period of life that is marked by stress, strain and pain. While this may be the presenting problem, the journey of therapy allows one to develop an understanding of the strengths as well as limitations that help or hinder life at different stages. Evelyn helps clients recognize patterns of interaction in the present that may shed insight on difficult recurring issues.
She has completed post graduate certification and training through the Saint Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
Making a decision to enter therapy is often a step taken after much thought and consideration. Evelyn's professional experience is framed by a philosophy of trust and respect in the collaborative relationship. Clients may enter treatment at a period of life that is marked by stress, strain and pain. While this may be the presenting problem, the journey of therapy allows one to develop an understanding of the strengths as well as limitations that help or hinder life at different stages. Evelyn helps clients recognize patterns of interaction in the present that may shed insight on difficult recurring issues.
(314) 492-5185 View (314) 492-5185
Photo of Austin E Wilmot, MSW, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Austin E Wilmot
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
4 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63124
Psychoanalytic psychotherapy is a unique tool, not guided by a worksheet, handbook or other agenda like other treatment approaches.
I have experience treating all ages with an in-depth approach, beginning with meeting you and working to understand the difficulties you are facing. I offer a space that fosters fuller experiencing and understanding of your inner emotional life, including feelings, thoughts, dreams and fantasies. In connection with me, your symptoms and problematic patterns can become understood in new ways, leading to emotional growth and a greater capacity to make meaningful changes in your life. I provide dynamic therapy in-office and by videoconference to people whose location or commitments make it difficult to attend in-person meetings.
Psychoanalytic psychotherapy is a unique tool, not guided by a worksheet, handbook or other agenda like other treatment approaches.
I have experience treating all ages with an in-depth approach, beginning with meeting you and working to understand the difficulties you are facing. I offer a space that fosters fuller experiencing and understanding of your inner emotional life, including feelings, thoughts, dreams and fantasies. In connection with me, your symptoms and problematic patterns can become understood in new ways, leading to emotional growth and a greater capacity to make meaningful changes in your life. I provide dynamic therapy in-office and by videoconference to people whose location or commitments make it difficult to attend in-person meetings.
(314) 907-3197 View (314) 907-3197
Photo of Katie Willard Virant, JD, MSW, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Katie Willard Virant
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, JD, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63117
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
We thrive as humans when we understand ourselves. I work creatively and compassionately with adults and adolescents to deepen and broaden self-understanding. Emotional pain - like physical pain - is a signal that help is needed and that something must change. Psychotherapy can be that powerful catalyst for healing. I believe in meeting people where they are, listening intently, and co-creating a safe and brave space where my clients can grow.
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
We thrive as humans when we understand ourselves. I work creatively and compassionately with adults and adolescents to deepen and broaden self-understanding. Emotional pain - like physical pain - is a signal that help is needed and that something must change. Psychotherapy can be that powerful catalyst for healing. I believe in meeting people where they are, listening intently, and co-creating a safe and brave space where my clients can grow.
(314) 667-4811 View (314) 667-4811
Photo of John Hart, MEd, LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor
John Hart
Licensed Professional Counselor, MEd, LPC
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63105
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
I have over 20 years of experience working in a therapeutic setting. My approach places a central focus on development of a strong therapeutic relationship and creating a space where one can explore personal issues. Symptoms are often what bring people to seek therapy. I see a symptom as a means for understanding the underlying issues that cause them. I have experience working with adults and adolescents (ages 13 and older). In support of working with adolescents, I also work with parents in a parallel manner.
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
I have over 20 years of experience working in a therapeutic setting. My approach places a central focus on development of a strong therapeutic relationship and creating a space where one can explore personal issues. Symptoms are often what bring people to seek therapy. I see a symptom as a means for understanding the underlying issues that cause them. I have experience working with adults and adolescents (ages 13 and older). In support of working with adolescents, I also work with parents in a parallel manner.
(314) 488-2156 View (314) 488-2156
Photo of Melissa T Scolaro, MSW, LCSW, MA, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Melissa T Scolaro
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW, MA
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63117
Waitlist for new clients
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute and the PEP Program at Care and Counseling.
When the challenges of life and relationship present you with complex dilemmas and create painful or uncomfortable symptoms, therapy offers an opportunity for healing and long-lasting psychological change. The power of therapy is in the way it expands your choice in behaviors or ways of seeing others, yourself and your life circumstances. Through a compassionate journey of self-exploration I will help you work toward a fuller understanding of yourself which will lead to greater choice in how you live, love, work and play. It is a privilege to join you on your journey of self-discovery and healing.
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute and the PEP Program at Care and Counseling.
When the challenges of life and relationship present you with complex dilemmas and create painful or uncomfortable symptoms, therapy offers an opportunity for healing and long-lasting psychological change. The power of therapy is in the way it expands your choice in behaviors or ways of seeing others, yourself and your life circumstances. Through a compassionate journey of self-exploration I will help you work toward a fuller understanding of yourself which will lead to greater choice in how you live, love, work and play. It is a privilege to join you on your journey of self-discovery and healing.
(314) 828-1020 View (314) 828-1020
Photo of Stephanie Whitney Jategaonkar, MA, LPC, ATR-BC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Stephanie Whitney Jategaonkar
Licensed Professional Counselor, MA, LPC, ATR-BC
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63141
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, Internal Family Systems Therapy, Advanced Training in Spiritually Integrated Therapy, and courses in the Adult Psychoanalytic Program at the St.
I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Registered / Board Certified Art Therapist working with adults, adolescents, and children. My approach to therapy begins with forming a safe, therapeutic relationship that allows you to explore life transitions, emotional pain, or other symptoms, such as anxiety, depression, addiction, or eating disorders. We will move beyond symptom management and help you to identify and develop understanding of the deeper meaning of the presenting symptoms. Often, the symptoms are external manifestations of conflicts and core beliefs rooted in the inner world or attempts to avoid the pain of past and current life experiences.
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute, Sensorimotor Psychotherapy, Internal Family Systems Therapy, Advanced Training in Spiritually Integrated Therapy, and courses in the Adult Psychoanalytic Program at the St.
I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Registered / Board Certified Art Therapist working with adults, adolescents, and children. My approach to therapy begins with forming a safe, therapeutic relationship that allows you to explore life transitions, emotional pain, or other symptoms, such as anxiety, depression, addiction, or eating disorders. We will move beyond symptom management and help you to identify and develop understanding of the deeper meaning of the presenting symptoms. Often, the symptoms are external manifestations of conflicts and core beliefs rooted in the inner world or attempts to avoid the pain of past and current life experiences.
(314) 266-8280 View (314) 266-8280
Photo of Chester Smith, MEd, LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor
Chester Smith
Licensed Professional Counselor, MEd, LPC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63106
In addition to my private practice I am a faculty member at the Saint Louis Psychoanalytic Institute and serve as Director of Clinical Training at the Schiele Clinic Practicum Program.
Whether it is wanting help with depression or anxiety, wanting to work on relationship issues or just wanting to live a richer fuller life, therapy can help. As human beings we are faced with a broad range of challenges. Therapy provides the opportunity to explore thoughts and feelings that contribute to anxiety, depression, and relationship difficulties. It is a place to learn about one’s self and to grow. Emotional pain like physical pain is a signal that something needs to be attended to. Sources can often be found in our early life experiences sometimes involving trauma. Once understood the pain will usually begin to subside.
In addition to my private practice I am a faculty member at the Saint Louis Psychoanalytic Institute and serve as Director of Clinical Training at the Schiele Clinic Practicum Program.
Whether it is wanting help with depression or anxiety, wanting to work on relationship issues or just wanting to live a richer fuller life, therapy can help. As human beings we are faced with a broad range of challenges. Therapy provides the opportunity to explore thoughts and feelings that contribute to anxiety, depression, and relationship difficulties. It is a place to learn about one’s self and to grow. Emotional pain like physical pain is a signal that something needs to be attended to. Sources can often be found in our early life experiences sometimes involving trauma. Once understood the pain will usually begin to subside.
(314) 207-8599 View (314) 207-8599
Photo of John C. Lucas, MA, LPC, Licensed Professional Counselor
John C. Lucas
Licensed Professional Counselor, MA, LPC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63130
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
I believe therapy is a collaborative process where people can learn more about themselves and how to live differently. This change occurs through the therapeutic relationship. I help people understand how to help themselves and alleviate their suffering.
Louis Psychoanalytic Institute.
I believe therapy is a collaborative process where people can learn more about themselves and how to live differently. This change occurs through the therapeutic relationship. I help people understand how to help themselves and alleviate their suffering.
(314) 325-2175 View (314) 325-2175
Photo of Kari Wilson, MA, LPC, CYT200, Licensed Professional Counselor
Kari Wilson
Licensed Professional Counselor, MA, LPC, CYT200
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63119
What I have found that brings people to therapy is a tension between two things, which is often an internal feeling and something that is happening in life. Sometimes this becomes so overwhelming that it feels as though we are drowning in decisions and feelings. Often it is our unconscious complexes and attachments that constellate this type of energy. I practice in-depth psychotherapy with a Jungian influence. This type of therapy is unstructured and long-term, which allows for space and flexibility for the healing process to occur.
What I have found that brings people to therapy is a tension between two things, which is often an internal feeling and something that is happening in life. Sometimes this becomes so overwhelming that it feels as though we are drowning in decisions and feelings. Often it is our unconscious complexes and attachments that constellate this type of energy. I practice in-depth psychotherapy with a Jungian influence. This type of therapy is unstructured and long-term, which allows for space and flexibility for the healing process to occur.
(314) 470-8835 View (314) 470-8835
Photo of Jacqueline Fay Langley, PhD, Psychologist
Jacqueline Fay Langley
Psychologist, PhD
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63117
I have been treating all age groups in the St. Louis area for over 35 years. My in depth training as both a psychologist and psychoanalyst for children and adults provides a full spectrum of skills to treat short and long term issues for all age groups. I am highly skilled at meeting a person where they are to help them, through connection with me and my understanding of them, reach new and emotionally healthier places in their life. In addition to the areas of specialties listed I work with mother/infant dyads and children who are adopted and their parents achieve more satisfying attachments.
I have been treating all age groups in the St. Louis area for over 35 years. My in depth training as both a psychologist and psychoanalyst for children and adults provides a full spectrum of skills to treat short and long term issues for all age groups. I am highly skilled at meeting a person where they are to help them, through connection with me and my understanding of them, reach new and emotionally healthier places in their life. In addition to the areas of specialties listed I work with mother/infant dyads and children who are adopted and their parents achieve more satisfying attachments.
(314) 527-1227 View (314) 527-1227
Photo of Erin Elking, PLPC, Pre-Licensed Professional
Erin Elking
Pre-Licensed Professional, PLPC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63108
Welcome! I'm glad you found your way here! I'm a dedicated therapist with a passion for helping individuals live a life worth living. I hold a PLPC license and am supervised by an LPC. I have been endorsed by the National Board for Certified Counselors. My therapeutic approach is centered around creating a strong therapeutic alliance, practicing unconditional positive regard, empathy, and creating a space where you can feel vulnerable and validated as you work through challenges. I have developed a niche for working with self-harm, mood disorders, personality disorders, and trauma.
Welcome! I'm glad you found your way here! I'm a dedicated therapist with a passion for helping individuals live a life worth living. I hold a PLPC license and am supervised by an LPC. I have been endorsed by the National Board for Certified Counselors. My therapeutic approach is centered around creating a strong therapeutic alliance, practicing unconditional positive regard, empathy, and creating a space where you can feel vulnerable and validated as you work through challenges. I have developed a niche for working with self-harm, mood disorders, personality disorders, and trauma.
(314) 936-4644 View (314) 936-4644
Photo of Daria Loechner, LPC, NCC, MEd, Licensed Professional Counselor
Daria Loechner
Licensed Professional Counselor, LPC, NCC, MEd
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63108
Many can recognize themselves as being desperate, stuck in repeating chains of events, or feeling hopeless and alone dealing with problems. There is a way out. I specialize in assisting adults with anxiety, depression, problematic relationship patterns, trauma, dissociation.
Many can recognize themselves as being desperate, stuck in repeating chains of events, or feeling hopeless and alone dealing with problems. There is a way out. I specialize in assisting adults with anxiety, depression, problematic relationship patterns, trauma, dissociation.
(314) 350-7595 View (314) 350-7595
Photo of Jackie Sell, MA, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Jackie Sell
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MA, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63118
Depth psychotherapy work is a process unique to each individual and it relies on their innate potential for growth and ability to explore deeper realms of the psyche. We will use tools such as dream work, active imagination, explorations of the past as well as the present to understand those deeper aspects of the mind. The goal of depth work is to understand unconscious patterns and origins of behavior which can ultimately lead to greater psychological flexibility and freedom. Many clients who experience depth work end up finding a renewed sense of Self and purpose.
Depth psychotherapy work is a process unique to each individual and it relies on their innate potential for growth and ability to explore deeper realms of the psyche. We will use tools such as dream work, active imagination, explorations of the past as well as the present to understand those deeper aspects of the mind. The goal of depth work is to understand unconscious patterns and origins of behavior which can ultimately lead to greater psychological flexibility and freedom. Many clients who experience depth work end up finding a renewed sense of Self and purpose.
(636) 215-6894 View (636) 215-6894
Photo of Lindsey Eilers - Midwest Institute for Addiction, MSW, LMSW, PhD, MD, Licensed Professional Counselor
Midwest Institute for Addiction
Licensed Professional Counselor, MSW, LMSW, PhD, MD
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63141
Any St. Louis rehabilitation center can provide treatment; MIA provides the difference. There are many drug rehab centers, but few of these rehab centers compare to Midwest Institute for Addiction's programs. This differentiation goes beyond our comprehensive, individualized, and evidence based treatment model and focuses on the quality of services that we offer. There is a lack of separation in the minds of professional service providers when considering the difference between a product offered and the service that coincides with that product. The MIA difference is the ability to offer quality services that coincide with our quality treatment.
Any St. Louis rehabilitation center can provide treatment; MIA provides the difference. There are many drug rehab centers, but few of these rehab centers compare to Midwest Institute for Addiction's programs. This differentiation goes beyond our comprehensive, individualized, and evidence based treatment model and focuses on the quality of services that we offer. There is a lack of separation in the minds of professional service providers when considering the difference between a product offered and the service that coincides with that product. The MIA difference is the ability to offer quality services that coincide with our quality treatment.
(314) 834-7035 View (314) 834-7035
Photo of Erin Elking, PLPC, NCC, Pre-Licensed Professional
Erin Elking
Pre-Licensed Professional, PLPC, NCC
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63108
Welcome! I'm glad you found your way here. I'm a dedicated therapist with a passion for helping individuals discover a life worth living. I hold a PLPC license and am supervised by an LPC. I have been endorsed by the National Board for Certified Counselors. My therapeutic approach is centered around creating a strong therapeutic alliance, practicing unconditional positive regard, empathy, and creating a space where you can feel vulnerable and validated as you work through challenges. I have developed a niche for working with self-harm, mood disorders, personality disorders, and trauma.
Welcome! I'm glad you found your way here. I'm a dedicated therapist with a passion for helping individuals discover a life worth living. I hold a PLPC license and am supervised by an LPC. I have been endorsed by the National Board for Certified Counselors. My therapeutic approach is centered around creating a strong therapeutic alliance, practicing unconditional positive regard, empathy, and creating a space where you can feel vulnerable and validated as you work through challenges. I have developed a niche for working with self-harm, mood disorders, personality disorders, and trauma.
(314) 274-1747 View (314) 274-1747
Photo of Kathryn Beskrowni, LPC, NCC, MEd, Licensed Professional Counselor
Kathryn Beskrowni
Licensed Professional Counselor, LPC, NCC, MEd
Verified Verified
3 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63139
I provide therapeutic services to adults, adolescents, couples, and families. Clients that tend to best fit my approach are seeking purpose and meaning, navigating feelings of uncertainty, alienation, or perpetual conflict, and are interested in examining ways outward dynamics reflect their inner selves. In other words, my work specializes in relational growth and development – in our communities, families, partnerships, and within ourselves.
I provide therapeutic services to adults, adolescents, couples, and families. Clients that tend to best fit my approach are seeking purpose and meaning, navigating feelings of uncertainty, alienation, or perpetual conflict, and are interested in examining ways outward dynamics reflect their inner selves. In other words, my work specializes in relational growth and development – in our communities, families, partnerships, and within ourselves.
(314) 949-3992 View (314) 949-3992
Photo of Angela Bowman - iHeal Wellness Therapy and Consulting, LLC, MSW, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
iHeal Wellness Therapy and Consulting, LLC
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, MSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
Saint Louis, MO 63105
Are you dealing with stress, relationship issues, mood disorders, career/professional concerns, or life transitions? Are you feeling overwhelmed and imbalanced? When this happens, everything else suffers from your personal to your professional life, including how you feel. You may find it challenging to find the right therapist who can help you heal. Just know that you are not alone. It can be difficult to seek therapy, especially if you tried it before and felt like it didn't work. “One size does not fit all.” Our approaches are tailored to the needs of each individual to help you find long lasting solutions. We can help.
Are you dealing with stress, relationship issues, mood disorders, career/professional concerns, or life transitions? Are you feeling overwhelmed and imbalanced? When this happens, everything else suffers from your personal to your professional life, including how you feel. You may find it challenging to find the right therapist who can help you heal. Just know that you are not alone. It can be difficult to seek therapy, especially if you tried it before and felt like it didn't work. “One size does not fit all.” Our approaches are tailored to the needs of each individual to help you find long lasting solutions. We can help.
(833) 621-0256 View (833) 621-0256
Photo of Michelle Smart, LCSW, MSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Michelle Smart
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW, MSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Saint Louis, MO 63108  (Online Only)
Just imagine a time in your life when your difficulties were so surmountable that the quality of your life diminished—struggling with weighty feelings from the loss of a loved one to thoughts of suicide. There is a solution: therapy! When individuals seek help and fully engage in the therapeutic process, the results lead to individuals living healthier lives. Together, we will create change in the areas of your life that no longer have meaning and purpose. I work to make everyone's therapy the best fit for them. I will use evidence-based therapy concepts, but I do not limit our work to any single model. My treatment style is rooted
Just imagine a time in your life when your difficulties were so surmountable that the quality of your life diminished—struggling with weighty feelings from the loss of a loved one to thoughts of suicide. There is a solution: therapy! When individuals seek help and fully engage in the therapeutic process, the results lead to individuals living healthier lives. Together, we will create change in the areas of your life that no longer have meaning and purpose. I work to make everyone's therapy the best fit for them. I will use evidence-based therapy concepts, but I do not limit our work to any single model. My treatment style is rooted
(314) 470-9254 View (314) 470-9254
1

Psychoanalytic Therapists

Does psychoanalytic therapy work?

Psychoanalytic therapy derives from the work of Sigmund Freud. In this type of therapy, discovering buried thoughts and emotions from the unconscious will help a person work through their difficulties and negative behaviors. Research shows that psychoanalytic therapy can be highly effective, with patients reporting improvement in mood, quality of life, and overall well-being.

How long are people typically in psychoanalytic therapy?

Traditional psychoanalysis is in-depth and is conducted in five sessions every week. Today, modern psychoanalytic therapy is less intense and normally incorporates as few as one or two sessions a week. In some cases, positive change can occur quickly. However, if the condition, difficulty, or behavior is deep-seated, improvement may require many months or years of therapy.

Is psychoanalytic therapy suitable for young people?

Children and adolescents can benefit from this type of therapy. Many kids and teens are often unable to form and communicate their thoughts and emotions. Psychoanalytic therapy uses specific techniques such as dream analysis, symbolism, and free association or word association; all of which can be useful tools for less-communicative young people. Through this therapy, a patient will hopefully make connections between what they feel inside and how the world works outside.

Can psychoanalytic therapy be done online?

Modern-day psychoanalytic therapy is very different from traditional psychoanalysis. While an individual can sit face-to-face with the psychoanalyst for multiple sessions a week, they do not have to. Today, psychoanalytic therapy can be effectively conducted online or by phone. The key is that the individual confronts what is repressed and avoided, and this can be done whether in person or over online video.