Transgender Therapists in Santee, CA

Photo of Jenée L Harris - Jenée Harris First Responder Mental Health, LMFT, EMDR, Marriage & Family Therapist
Jenée Harris First Responder Mental Health
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT, EMDR
Verified Verified
Santee, CA 92071  (Online Only)
Hi, I’m so glad you have taken a step to beginning therapy. I work with a variety of clients who are 18+ via Telehealth in California. I have specialized training as well as both personal and professional experience with supporting first responders, military personnel, and their families. I also see civilians at my practice. My approach is caring, supportive, and direct. Your time is important, I will work with you to identify goals and work toward them in a way that meets your needs. I bring humor, honesty, and compassion into sessions to create a space and relationship that allows for trust, safety, and accountability.
Hi, I’m so glad you have taken a step to beginning therapy. I work with a variety of clients who are 18+ via Telehealth in California. I have specialized training as well as both personal and professional experience with supporting first responders, military personnel, and their families. I also see civilians at my practice. My approach is caring, supportive, and direct. Your time is important, I will work with you to identify goals and work toward them in a way that meets your needs. I bring humor, honesty, and compassion into sessions to create a space and relationship that allows for trust, safety, and accountability.
(619) 949-3731 View (619) 949-3731
Photo of Andrew Lancaster Byrne - Balanced Life Therapy Center, LMFT, LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
Balanced Life Therapy Center, LMFT
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Santee, CA 92071
Just being human can be hard, and with all that is expected of us in this life, it can seem almost impossible at times. The external world can feel overwhelming and unsafe and our internal world can feel chaotic and just as unsafe. At the heart of any therapeutic approach is the attempt to find peace within so we can learn to be at peace with what is beyond our control. At Balanced Life Therapy Center, our clinicians are trained, each in their own preferred approach to healing, to support the inner world of their clients and help them get connected to the power they hold to move towards the life they desire.
Just being human can be hard, and with all that is expected of us in this life, it can seem almost impossible at times. The external world can feel overwhelming and unsafe and our internal world can feel chaotic and just as unsafe. At the heart of any therapeutic approach is the attempt to find peace within so we can learn to be at peace with what is beyond our control. At Balanced Life Therapy Center, our clinicians are trained, each in their own preferred approach to healing, to support the inner world of their clients and help them get connected to the power they hold to move towards the life they desire.
(619) 382-2873 View (619) 382-2873
Photo of Isabelle George - Live Inspired Child & Family Therapy, Inc., LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
Live Inspired Child & Family Therapy, Inc.
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Santee, CA 92071  (Online Only)
Through a holistic approach including: Play Therapy, Expressive Arts, and Integrative Nutrition, I support clients in exploring their unique strengths and individual needs. I am a believer in the extraordinary healing powers of play! "The creation of something new is not powered by the intellect, but by the play instinct arising from inner necessity." ~ Carl Jung.
Through a holistic approach including: Play Therapy, Expressive Arts, and Integrative Nutrition, I support clients in exploring their unique strengths and individual needs. I am a believer in the extraordinary healing powers of play! "The creation of something new is not powered by the intellect, but by the play instinct arising from inner necessity." ~ Carl Jung.
(619) 738-6512 View (619) 738-6512
Photo of Alisha Borges - Alisha Borges - Expansive Therapy, APCC, Counselor
Alisha Borges - Expansive Therapy
Counselor, APCC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Santee, CA 92071
My approach to therapy is rooted in the power of healing-in-relationship and the engagement of our whole selves in that process. For those interested, my background as a Registered Dance/Movement Therapist allows for utilizing the body, art, and play as a few of the key instruments in the healing journey, alongside traditional talk therapy practices. My theoretical orientation is also integrative of psychodynamic theories, existential theory, mindfulness, interpersonal neurobiology, attachment theory, and internal family systems.
My approach to therapy is rooted in the power of healing-in-relationship and the engagement of our whole selves in that process. For those interested, my background as a Registered Dance/Movement Therapist allows for utilizing the body, art, and play as a few of the key instruments in the healing journey, alongside traditional talk therapy practices. My theoretical orientation is also integrative of psychodynamic theories, existential theory, mindfulness, interpersonal neurobiology, attachment theory, and internal family systems.
(646) 760-5117 View (646) 760-5117
Photo of Krystle Joy Briese, LMFT, RPT-S, Marriage & Family Therapist
Krystle Joy Briese
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT, RPT-S
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
Santee, CA 92071
Is your child or teen struggling at home, school, or in their everyday life? Are you trying to figure out how to be the best parent for them? As a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Registered Play Therapist-Supervisor I can help your child or teen work through their struggles and help you, as their parent, help them too.
Is your child or teen struggling at home, school, or in their everyday life? Are you trying to figure out how to be the best parent for them? As a Licensed Marriage & Family Therapist and Registered Play Therapist-Supervisor I can help your child or teen work through their struggles and help you, as their parent, help them too.
(619) 658-6811 View (619) 658-6811
Photo of Shaina Gonzales, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Shaina Gonzales
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
Santee, CA 92071
Hi there! My name is Shaina Fawn (she/her). I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with over 14 years of experience providing therapeutic support to members of marginalized communities. My specialty areas include trauma, anxiety, depression, grief and loss, death and dying LGBTQ experiences, and individuals working in the entertainment industry. My theoretical approaches include cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy informed interventions, solution-focused therapy, narrative therapy, mindfulness-based stress reduction techniques, and eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR).
Hi there! My name is Shaina Fawn (she/her). I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with over 14 years of experience providing therapeutic support to members of marginalized communities. My specialty areas include trauma, anxiety, depression, grief and loss, death and dying LGBTQ experiences, and individuals working in the entertainment industry. My theoretical approaches include cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy informed interventions, solution-focused therapy, narrative therapy, mindfulness-based stress reduction techniques, and eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR).
(661) 762-3587 View (661) 762-3587
Photo of Coleen Cobbs, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Coleen Cobbs
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
Santee, CA 92072
Do you find yourself feeling more depressed or anxious? Are you overwhelmed by a life transition? If you suffer from perinatal mood or anxiety disorders , you are not alone and I can help. Are you in the military? I have 24 years experience working with military families. Or you may have unresolved trauma that is interfering in your present life. I can help with any of these issues and more.
Do you find yourself feeling more depressed or anxious? Are you overwhelmed by a life transition? If you suffer from perinatal mood or anxiety disorders , you are not alone and I can help. Are you in the military? I have 24 years experience working with military families. Or you may have unresolved trauma that is interfering in your present life. I can help with any of these issues and more.
(619) 332-5273 View (619) 332-5273

More Therapists Nearby

Photo of Zaire Flowers, Pre-Licensed Professional
Zaire Flowers
Pre-Licensed Professional
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
San Diego, CA 92116  (Online Only)
As a transgender, black, and openly queer therapist, I have the skills and experience to help you reach your true potential.
Are you a Black, Queer, Trans, or differently-abled person ready to live authentically with no regrets? I'll help you build the confidence and self-love that will get you there. Discover a life where self-expression thrives and empowerment reigns! I help people of all genders, sexual orientations, races, and religions overcome their internalized oppression and step into a better future. Learn how to eliminate the emotional obstacles that are blocking the path to your best life. Discover delight, balance, and confidence in your own skin. Change the way you live and experience the life that is rightfully yours!
As a transgender, black, and openly queer therapist, I have the skills and experience to help you reach your true potential.
Are you a Black, Queer, Trans, or differently-abled person ready to live authentically with no regrets? I'll help you build the confidence and self-love that will get you there. Discover a life where self-expression thrives and empowerment reigns! I help people of all genders, sexual orientations, races, and religions overcome their internalized oppression and step into a better future. Learn how to eliminate the emotional obstacles that are blocking the path to your best life. Discover delight, balance, and confidence in your own skin. Change the way you live and experience the life that is rightfully yours!
(858) 263-0674 x8 View (858) 263-0674 x8
Photo of Adrian Belmes, Marriage & Family Therapist Associate
Adrian Belmes
Marriage & Family Therapist Associate
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
San Diego, CA 92115  (Online Only)
If you are searching for insight and depth, you’re in the right place. My name is Adrian (he/him), and I am an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in working with transgender, gender non-conforming, and queer adults and teens. My practice is centered on supporting individuals facing questions of gender exploration, sexuality, identity formation, anxiety, emotional dysregulation, and interpersonal conflict.
If you are searching for insight and depth, you’re in the right place. My name is Adrian (he/him), and I am an Associate Marriage and Family Therapist specializing in working with transgender, gender non-conforming, and queer adults and teens. My practice is centered on supporting individuals facing questions of gender exploration, sexuality, identity formation, anxiety, emotional dysregulation, and interpersonal conflict.
(760) 477-4865 View (760) 477-4865
Photo of Marci Kyle - The Lotus Counseling Center, DSW, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
The Lotus Counseling Center
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, DSW, LCSW
Verified Verified
San Diego, CA 92115  (Online Only)
I treat most issues, however, I specialize in teens, adults, the transgender population, women's issues, depression, anxiety, trauma/PTSD, and addiction.
I offer Telehealth counseling services for a wide range of life's challenges. I provide services that span from therapy for depression, anxiety, transgender related issues, women's issues, adolescent issues, trauma, addiction, to serious or terminal heath issues. I offer a highly personalized approach tailored to each clients' individual needs to assist in attaining the personal growth they are striving for.
I treat most issues, however, I specialize in teens, adults, the transgender population, women's issues, depression, anxiety, trauma/PTSD, and addiction.
I offer Telehealth counseling services for a wide range of life's challenges. I provide services that span from therapy for depression, anxiety, transgender related issues, women's issues, adolescent issues, trauma, addiction, to serious or terminal heath issues. I offer a highly personalized approach tailored to each clients' individual needs to assist in attaining the personal growth they are striving for.
(619) 279-5782 View (619) 279-5782
Photo of Elizabeth (Lizzy) Ritti, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Elizabeth (Lizzy) Ritti
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
La Mesa, CA 91942
I utilize my clinical training in CBT, Affirmative Therapy for Transgender Communities, and Exposure Response Prevention in therapy.
I provide mental health care to youth, families, and adults coping with life transitions, chronic family stress, and identity development. These circumstances have led many individuals to experience symptoms of depression, trauma, anxiety, and feelings of loss. It is a sign of bravery and strength to seek support when these stressors are difficult to manage on your own. I am here to explore ways to improve your quality of life and identify unmet needs contributing to mental health symptoms.
I utilize my clinical training in CBT, Affirmative Therapy for Transgender Communities, and Exposure Response Prevention in therapy.
I provide mental health care to youth, families, and adults coping with life transitions, chronic family stress, and identity development. These circumstances have led many individuals to experience symptoms of depression, trauma, anxiety, and feelings of loss. It is a sign of bravery and strength to seek support when these stressors are difficult to manage on your own. I am here to explore ways to improve your quality of life and identify unmet needs contributing to mental health symptoms.
(619) 881-0303 View (619) 881-0303
Photo of Lotus Do, LCSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Lotus Do
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, LCSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
San Diego, CA 92108  (Online Only)
As a Vietnamese-American transgender man, I understand that stress, violence and oppression can significantly impact our lives.
Feeling overwhelmed or hopeless? Facing a crossroads? Exhausted by endless responsibilities? Relief may seem impossible when you are faced with chronic stress or extreme difficulties... but it is possible. My name is Lotus and I may be able to help. I am a Licensed Therapist and Gender Specialist with nearly a decade of experience specializing in Gender Dysphoria, complex trauma, depression, anxiety and disordered eating across the entire lifespan. Whether you are seeking support for you or your child, no topic is "too much" for me. I have supported hundreds of children and their families and adults build balanced, joyful lives.
As a Vietnamese-American transgender man, I understand that stress, violence and oppression can significantly impact our lives.
Feeling overwhelmed or hopeless? Facing a crossroads? Exhausted by endless responsibilities? Relief may seem impossible when you are faced with chronic stress or extreme difficulties... but it is possible. My name is Lotus and I may be able to help. I am a Licensed Therapist and Gender Specialist with nearly a decade of experience specializing in Gender Dysphoria, complex trauma, depression, anxiety and disordered eating across the entire lifespan. Whether you are seeking support for you or your child, no topic is "too much" for me. I have supported hundreds of children and their families and adults build balanced, joyful lives.
(619) 383-3284 View (619) 383-3284
Photo of Dr. Jason N Linder Associates - Dr. Jason N Linder & Associates, PsyD, LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
Dr. Jason N Linder & Associates
Marriage & Family Therapist, PsyD, LMFT
Verified Verified
18 Endorsed
San Diego, CA 92123
I help people, especially entrepreneurs, have better relationships, resolve painful memories (I'm certified & train in EMDR), embrace who they are, and decrease anxiety. I adjust my approach to fit your needs and preferences. Expert in transgender, ESA, VA, immigration, and trauma evaluations. Advanced in trauma, addiction, relationships, and mindfulness (I write about them on Psychology Today). You can usually expect change in 2-8 sessions. As a psychology doctor and professor, I’m updated on the latest research, and am dedicated, caring, and collaborative. You should feel understood, hopeful, and safe in your confidential therapy.
I help people, especially entrepreneurs, have better relationships, resolve painful memories (I'm certified & train in EMDR), embrace who they are, and decrease anxiety. I adjust my approach to fit your needs and preferences. Expert in transgender, ESA, VA, immigration, and trauma evaluations. Advanced in trauma, addiction, relationships, and mindfulness (I write about them on Psychology Today). You can usually expect change in 2-8 sessions. As a psychology doctor and professor, I’m updated on the latest research, and am dedicated, caring, and collaborative. You should feel understood, hopeful, and safe in your confidential therapy.
(619) 473-7607 View (619) 473-7607
Photo of John L Guinn, MS, LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
John L Guinn
Marriage & Family Therapist, MS, LMFT
Verified Verified
San Diego, CA 92115
I work well with couples, families, adolescents, young adults, older adults, survivors of domestic and intimate partner violence, members of the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, and intersex (GLBTQQI) community, active duty servicemembers and veterans of the U.
"There is no normal life that is free of pain. It's the very wrestling with our problems that can be the IMPETUS for our growth." (Mister Rogers). Approaching mental health and psychotherapy from a person-centered, solution-focused, and action-oriented perspective allows me to assist individuals from diverse cultures and ethnic backgrounds with creating and maintaining fulfilling relationships while sustaining a balanced life.
I work well with couples, families, adolescents, young adults, older adults, survivors of domestic and intimate partner violence, members of the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning, and intersex (GLBTQQI) community, active duty servicemembers and veterans of the U.
"There is no normal life that is free of pain. It's the very wrestling with our problems that can be the IMPETUS for our growth." (Mister Rogers). Approaching mental health and psychotherapy from a person-centered, solution-focused, and action-oriented perspective allows me to assist individuals from diverse cultures and ethnic backgrounds with creating and maintaining fulfilling relationships while sustaining a balanced life.
(619) 382-2909 View (619) 382-2909
Photo of Dr. Johanna Malaret, PsyD
Dr. Johanna Malaret
Registered Psychological Associate, PsyD
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
San Diego, CA 92115
Hello/Saludos. I welcome you to the start of your therapy journey and your desire to learn about yourself, and heal. As a bilingual Latina/x therapist for over 15 years, I have had the pleasure to work with college students, adults, emerging adults, domestic violence survivors, bilingual immigrants and, LGB and transgender community members. At times, it can be difficult to navigate our lives and relationships, and we might feel sad, angry, or overwhelmed. Therapy can be one way to get the support you need to feel better, learn, grow, heal, and thrive in your life and relationships. I will help you achieve that.
Hello/Saludos. I welcome you to the start of your therapy journey and your desire to learn about yourself, and heal. As a bilingual Latina/x therapist for over 15 years, I have had the pleasure to work with college students, adults, emerging adults, domestic violence survivors, bilingual immigrants and, LGB and transgender community members. At times, it can be difficult to navigate our lives and relationships, and we might feel sad, angry, or overwhelmed. Therapy can be one way to get the support you need to feel better, learn, grow, heal, and thrive in your life and relationships. I will help you achieve that.
(562) 573-9897 View (562) 573-9897
Photo of Jess Quessenberry, LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
Jess Quessenberry
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
El Cajon, CA 92020
I have a special interest in working with transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming clients.
Hey there, I'm Jess Quessenberry. I'm a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am a non-binary person (she/they) who works with a wide variety of individuals on many different issues. My approach is very individualized and centered on the client. People aren't one-size-fits-all, so adapting to their personalities and needs is key. I tend to use Narrative Therapy as a way to help us see other possible stories about the events in our lives.
I have a special interest in working with transgender, non-binary, and gender non-conforming clients.
Hey there, I'm Jess Quessenberry. I'm a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. I am a non-binary person (she/they) who works with a wide variety of individuals on many different issues. My approach is very individualized and centered on the client. People aren't one-size-fits-all, so adapting to their personalities and needs is key. I tend to use Narrative Therapy as a way to help us see other possible stories about the events in our lives.
(916) 252-5960 View (916) 252-5960
Photo of Kyung St Laurence, LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
Kyung St Laurence
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
El Cajon, CA 92021
I have worked with a wide range of clients from all backgrounds, with an emphasis on treating veterans and their families. I value a person-centered approach to building respectful and collaborative relationships to empower the change my clients seek through therapy. My area of particular interest is in working with individuals during life transitions, dealing with childhood trauma, OCD, ADHD, loss and grief, transgender issues, depression, anxiety, and interpersonal relationship struggles.
I have worked with a wide range of clients from all backgrounds, with an emphasis on treating veterans and their families. I value a person-centered approach to building respectful and collaborative relationships to empower the change my clients seek through therapy. My area of particular interest is in working with individuals during life transitions, dealing with childhood trauma, OCD, ADHD, loss and grief, transgender issues, depression, anxiety, and interpersonal relationship struggles.
(619) 393-6219 View (619) 393-6219
Photo of Susan Willett, LMFT, Marriage & Family Therapist
Susan Willett
Marriage & Family Therapist, LMFT
Verified Verified
Poway, CA 92064
My background in various treatment centers also led me to work with addiction, alcoholism, the LGBTQ community, transgender, and HIV.
My background was in the creative arts, and I use that often in my relationships with clients. My concentration is on neural-plasticity (which is basically the science of how the brain can change old thinking patterns with practice.) I think the combination of creativity and science makes for good therapy, while warmth and humor make for a great relationship. Initially, I work with depression and anxiety, generally taking a "family systems" approach. In other words, how your upbringing and early experiences impact your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors today.
My background in various treatment centers also led me to work with addiction, alcoholism, the LGBTQ community, transgender, and HIV.
My background was in the creative arts, and I use that often in my relationships with clients. My concentration is on neural-plasticity (which is basically the science of how the brain can change old thinking patterns with practice.) I think the combination of creativity and science makes for good therapy, while warmth and humor make for a great relationship. Initially, I work with depression and anxiety, generally taking a "family systems" approach. In other words, how your upbringing and early experiences impact your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors today.
(858) 367-9118 View (858) 367-9118
Photo of Jaclyn E. Jacobs, LPCC
Jaclyn E. Jacobs
Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor, LPCC
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
San Diego, CA 92131  (Online Only)
Many of my clients come to me feeling disconnected - from themselves, their bodies, their relationships, or their true desires. Often this disconnection stems from past trauma, anxiety, or the pressures of performance and perfectionism that weigh heavily on our systems. People bring me things they might not feel safe talking about with other providers or even friends, such as body image issues, erectile dysfunction, childhood abuse, and gender dysphoria. I specialize in working with queer, nonmonogamous, and kinky folks, though I'm happy to show up for anyone who is ready to nurture a deeper sense of connection in their lives.
Many of my clients come to me feeling disconnected - from themselves, their bodies, their relationships, or their true desires. Often this disconnection stems from past trauma, anxiety, or the pressures of performance and perfectionism that weigh heavily on our systems. People bring me things they might not feel safe talking about with other providers or even friends, such as body image issues, erectile dysfunction, childhood abuse, and gender dysphoria. I specialize in working with queer, nonmonogamous, and kinky folks, though I'm happy to show up for anyone who is ready to nurture a deeper sense of connection in their lives.
(858) 330-1960 View (858) 330-1960
Photo of Rachelle Ann Ramos, MS, Marriage & Family Therapist
Rachelle Ann Ramos
Marriage & Family Therapist, MS
Verified Verified
San Diego, CA 92116  (Online Only)
Clients who seek me out for therapy often identify with historically underrepresented groups such as Black, Indigenous, people of transnational-immigrant diaspora, LGBTQIA+ individuals/couples/CNM configurations, sex workers, and more. My therapy services include but are not limited to supporting individuals/couples/CNM configurations navigating life transitions, processing trauma to release the influence of the past on the present, as well as finding/developing their emotional balance. I have experience working with Consensually Nonmonogamous Configurations as well as Kinky populations in regard to my relational work.
Clients who seek me out for therapy often identify with historically underrepresented groups such as Black, Indigenous, people of transnational-immigrant diaspora, LGBTQIA+ individuals/couples/CNM configurations, sex workers, and more. My therapy services include but are not limited to supporting individuals/couples/CNM configurations navigating life transitions, processing trauma to release the influence of the past on the present, as well as finding/developing their emotional balance. I have experience working with Consensually Nonmonogamous Configurations as well as Kinky populations in regard to my relational work.
(619) 732-3255 View (619) 732-3255

See more therapy options for Santee

Transgender Therapists

As a gender-diverse individual, why might I want to see a therapist who is also gender diverse?

A trans or gender-diverse client may want to see a therapist who is also trans or gender diverse because the client may feel safer sharing their experiences and more confident that the therapist will understand, validate, and support them. But trans or gender-diverse clients can also benefit from therapy with cisgender therapists; this is a personal decision based on the connection between the client and the therapist, and if that connection is strong, therapy will be successful.

What if I cannot find a therapist who shares my gender identity?

Therapy can still be effective if a therapist does not share a client’s gender identity; a large body of research indicates that the most important factor in successful therapy is the therapeutic alliance. A therapist can also be interviewed for sensitivity and competence on gender identity and expression to ensure they possess appropriate knowledge and skills. Many therapists have excellent training and extensive experience working with gender-diverse clients, and that expertise can be invaluable despite a therapist not sharing the same firsthand experiences.

How can I recognize a good therapist for working with gender-diverse clients?

An experienced therapist should be able to help clients explore their gender identity and expression, alleviate discomfort related to their gender identity, treat mental health challenges and trauma, address existing relationships and communication with family members and loved ones, and determine the next steps pertaining to nonmedical or medical gender-affirming interventions. To recognize a good therapist, clients can ask about these topics and explore their comfort and connection with the clinician.

How might I inquire about a therapist’s experience working with transgender clients?

Clients should feel comfortable asking therapists directly about their experience working with transgender or gender-diverse clientele. For example, clients may ask about the therapist’s training and education with regard to gender identity, how many trans clients they’ve worked with in the past, and what sorts of matters were discussed. You may wish to inquire how a therapist specifically supports the needs of transgender clients or clients questioning their gender identity. A good clinician who is nonetheless not the right fit for you is often happy to make referrals to others based on the concerns you articulate in a preliminary conversation.