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Psychopathy
The Joker Wild: Is It Too Late for Some to Rehabilitate?
Does Batman's classic archenemy represent real evil beyond rehabilitation?
Posted September 19, 2018
Are some people evil beyond redemption? It's a difficult question and perhaps an unconfirmable idea. Success in therapy or other rehabilitation may not happen if the individual in question does not want to change. This becomes a special issue of concern when looking at those who pose threats to others around them. Some people are dangerous. Some people prefer to stay dangerous.
People with personality disorders have deeply ingrained traits, unhealthy characteristics that are part of who they are as individuals. These characteristics are known to be inflexible and pervasive throughout their lives and various circumstances, essentially maladaptive cardinal traits. Views on the personality disorders have changed over the years, though, so much so that the category was set to undergo massive restructuring in the DSM-5—except for the problem that the newly planned system lacked scientific foundation (Frances, 2010, 2012; Maisel, 2011; Winarick, 2016). While psychopathy is not listed in the DSM-5 as a modern diagnosis, plenty of professionals consider it to be one of the more useful constructs because it addresses the inner qualities more than overt actions. But psychopathy alone is insufficient to account for the kinds of behavior that people deem evil, which also seem to require malignant narcissism, manipulativeness, and outright sadism. These characteristics do not develop overnight, and there is no evidence that we are all just one bad day away from becoming a Bundy, Gacy, Wuornos, or Voorhees.
Whatever a personality disorder entails and whatever psychopathy consists of, these things do not respond well to treatment. In fact, psychopaths can even learn from therapy how to become better psychopaths if the process teaches them more about what others want to hear from them in order to think they've become better people. Can the worst people ever get better?
The graphic novel Batman: The Killing Joke begins and ends with Batman attempting to reach out to his archenemy, the Joker, shortly after the Joker has shot and paralyzed Batgirl: "Do you understand? I don't want to hurt you. I don't want either of us to end up killing the other. But we're both running out of alternatives, and we both know it." He offers help. "We could work together. I could rehabilitate you. You needn't be out there on the edge anymore. You needn't be alone. We don't have to kill each other. What do you say?" The Joker, though, declines: "No. I'm sorry, but... No. It's too late for that. Far too late." Then he tells a joke.
On social media, I posed the question: Could any form of therapy or rehabilitation "fix" or even improve the Joker? Those who answered strongly tended to agree on whether the answer is yes or no.
C.M.: No.
J.J.: No.
S.G.: Does the Joker want to "get better?" - I think not
S.H.: Not if you follow the "super sanity" theory in which he's not crazy, just more of a violent nihilist
B.M.: The question (Could any form of therapy or rehabilitation "fix" or even improve the Joker?) is an empirical question about the possibilities for help for extremely hurt people. The answer is that help is possible, improvement is possible, but no therapy has predictable effectiveness, and there are high relapse rates. Usually help involves a reorientation toward a new transcendent value--such as falling in love or dedication to building a revolutionary society or finding Jesus (two of the three seem really good options, to me).
E.C.: I think it also depends on what we consider rehabilitation. Considering the Joker's personal strengths and personality I don't think he could do the house in the suburbs, 2.3 children, and 40 hour week at a desk life that society insists on. (just picturing joker mowing the lawn and saying howdy to his neighbor with a bland but genuine suburban smile and wave).
C.D.: I honestly believe if someone is motivated to improve that it is possible...that small but important word “if”.
S.H.S.: (In the comic book realm, he'd be far more likely to part of the 3% that...for whatever reason...get better on their own....some sort of penny that drops or lightbulb that goes on.) It depends on what storyline you follow...is he a nihilist...or is he in a full blown state of anosognosia?
S.P.T.: I think it would have to depend on if he wants to change or not. Plus it would be up to whoever the therapist is to figure out what approach to use and be prepared to have relapses and ups and downs. Hopefully not become the next Harley Quinn
@BenInnovator: No
@FromTheWastes: No. Just as in real life, some people are irreparably broken.
@BradBarnes17: The Joker and Batman cannot be rehabilitated; you as a superherologist are well aware there is no therapeutic path to separate these individuals from their fundamental impulses! Too much mirthful mayhem on the Joker's hands, too much good guano on Batman's cape :D
@JenniColn: 1) He has to want to be helped first. In all incarnations I’ve seen of him, he doesn’t want to change or believes that he doesn’t have any choice than be who he is (ie in the killing joke he thought anyone could be like him if traumatized enough, indicating a “fixed” mindset).
2) and he enjoys the things he does which would make behavior change hard since his enjoyment of it positively reinforces it and he doesn’t really care about the negative consequences enough to act differently.
@BWA_Switch: No, and seeing what happened to Harley, he's already had his chance. Don't break any more clinicians!
@Frost_Kuji: It will only work if Joker is willing to get help but Joker already thinks it's too late. Not willing to give anything a try and lost of hope.
@revsully: Ok, Travis. I’ll give my best answer. After 4 years of listening to and potentially grokking @ArkhamSessions I’ll say “no”. Neither B nor J are or could be fully integrated people. I think as characters they need to be “broken” to propel Story. Or in closed ending such as Nolan.
@toonatonian: That Joker? ... He would need to want to change, his joke after this scene tells us, that he does not intend to yet & doesn’t foresee ever recovering from his tragedy. #nerdfan #comics
@cai_boxer: I’d also say Hamil’s Joker could benefit from some serious inner child work & Ledger’s could look at his configuration of self so he can see how his lack of fixed identity doesn’t mean he has to be a villain. Of course, any of these depend on him being willing to self-examine...someone who could do that without letting themselves get drawn into boundary violations might stand a chance. His need (in whatever incarnation) to be SEEN by Batman could at least be partially satisfied by unconditional positive regard & the empathy of a congruent therapist.
@LynnOtto9: Likely not. His identity after he's 'fixed' would be unrecognizable, even to him. Then there's the question of what would he do within that new identity to sustain himself
@cai_boxer: I’d like to see what humanistic therapy could do for him. Maybe not pure Rogerian PCT - you’d need a therapist with a core self of iron not to get swept up in his fictions - but Harley’s probably come the closest in terms of providing him with a therapeutic relationship, so...
@SinghmundFreud: doing a CBT formulation would be pretty useless given he keeps changing his story
@JackieFiest: I'll say no, as Joker turns down Batman's offer. He doesn't want help. What's funny is when the TKJ movie came out I held my breath during this scene, & was sad to hear @HamillHimself's slightly British response of, "I'm sorry, but no." Don't know what else I thought would hppn.
@batlabs39: i feel like if there was a way or something maybe. The joker has done so much harm and destruction. But maybe who knows
@ShanePlays: No. His "superpower" is he's batcrap crazy. He's nihilism on two legs. He's so chaotic even Ian Malcolm can't grok it
@KVelezgi: Lobotomy seemed to help of of Batman's enemies, Poison Ivy wasn't murderous towards the Flash who had picked a flower from her rose bush. Even a lobotomized Scar Face seemed to make a docile Arnold Wesker. The point of the US prison system to rehabilitate, despite rates recidivism. This in part shows why Batman is the most optimistic hero, because he knows that his rogues need help and he genuinely wants to get help. Justice League: A Better World showed lobotomy helped Joker.
@Billi_sense: I believe that if we can identify an appropriate diagnosis, we can identify empirically based treatments with the best outcomes for that particular diagnosis.
@ZhiarSarkawt: tbh, Batman is the only DC figure who represents real human's psychology along with his villains. Joker is made to represent human's insane id which is uncontrolled by his/her ego and superego. each decade's Joker represents the worst habits Americans followed then...
@chagle77: I suppose it could but the question then becomes, would he even want to be rehabilitated? I very much doubt it. He wears his insanity like a favorite overcoat. Purple, naturally.
@zackcodso: It’s like you mentioned in your book: He’s beyond diagnosis. It’s a matter of treating every little symptom he has because you can’t classify him as one thing
@mikeableland: Sociopaths are incapable of empathy or remorse.
@TwoShrinksPod: Depends on what diagnosis you’d give the Joker - if he was thought to have Anti-Social PD or a psychopath then treatment options would be limited - we discussed treating these problems in our last episode: https://www.twoshrinkspod.com/podcasts/2018/8/27/30-is-my-child-a-psychopath-is-my-boss-a-psychopath-doing-therapy-with-a-psychopath-or-anti-social-personality
@Jdae13: Sadly and speaking from real life experience as a forensic psychotherapist, the current Joker doesn’t want to be rehabilitated. His goals are not to receive the care he needs nor is he a willing participant in attempting to participate or take any interest in recovery.
