Transgender Counselling in East Perth, WA

Photo of Valda Prado-Sampaio, PsyBA - Clin. Psych, Psychologist
Valda Prado-Sampaio
Psychologist, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Verified Verified
East Perth, WA 6004
Hi, I'm Valda. I help people of all ages and walks of life navigate difficult times in their lives and create healthier, happier relationships. Especially when anger or fears are high and hope low. If you long for better, deeper, more authentic relationships, I can help you too. I teach skills and principles that will help you communicate and solve problems better, while developing flexibility and resilience. It's important to me that you feel heard, understood, respected, and valued. I’ll respect your differences and always remember it’s a privilege to be allowed into your personal, private world.
Hi, I'm Valda. I help people of all ages and walks of life navigate difficult times in their lives and create healthier, happier relationships. Especially when anger or fears are high and hope low. If you long for better, deeper, more authentic relationships, I can help you too. I teach skills and principles that will help you communicate and solve problems better, while developing flexibility and resilience. It's important to me that you feel heard, understood, respected, and valued. I’ll respect your differences and always remember it’s a privilege to be allowed into your personal, private world.
(08) 6490 9795 View (08) 6490 9795
Photo of Josephine Thien - Interconnect Therapy, MSc, AAFT, Psychotherapist
Interconnect Therapy
Psychotherapist, MSc, AAFT
Verified Verified
East Perth, WA 6004
Families, couples and individuals seek my services because they want help to express and explore difficult thoughts and emotions safely, they want to understand each other’s experiences and views, appreciate each other’s needs, build on strengths and make useful changes in their relationships and their lives. My clients often comment that my sessions have provided them an opportunity to reflect on themselves and how they interact in their relationships which helps them understand their own behaviours better, thus finding ways forward - either as an individual or as a couple and family.
Families, couples and individuals seek my services because they want help to express and explore difficult thoughts and emotions safely, they want to understand each other’s experiences and views, appreciate each other’s needs, build on strengths and make useful changes in their relationships and their lives. My clients often comment that my sessions have provided them an opportunity to reflect on themselves and how they interact in their relationships which helps them understand their own behaviours better, thus finding ways forward - either as an individual or as a couple and family.
(08) 7701 9554 View (08) 7701 9554
Photo of Natalie Campbell, MPsych, PsyBA General, Psychologist
Natalie Campbell
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA General
Verified Verified
East Perth, WA 6004
Waitlist for new clients
I work with all individuals aged 18 and up. I have been working in private practice for a number of years, and prior to this, I have worked in a corporate environment and within corrections settings, which has allowed me to be proficient at helping with a large range of issues that may bring you to counselling - whether these be within your relationship/s, stressors within your workplace, or stemming from your childhood. I am passionate about working with the queer community, the vegan community, and those who are in minority groups.
I work with all individuals aged 18 and up. I have been working in private practice for a number of years, and prior to this, I have worked in a corporate environment and within corrections settings, which has allowed me to be proficient at helping with a large range of issues that may bring you to counselling - whether these be within your relationship/s, stressors within your workplace, or stemming from your childhood. I am passionate about working with the queer community, the vegan community, and those who are in minority groups.
View
Photo of Naomi Terpsis, PsyBA General, Psychologist
Naomi Terpsis
Psychologist, PsyBA General
Verified Verified
East Perth, WA 6004
I am passionate about helping you become psychologically flexible. No, I won't try to fix you, because you're not broken! I won't try to challenge your thoughts or feelings, because they are valid! I will help you understand what motivates you and I will teach you how to live a life that is meaningful - to you! My lived experience with ADHD gives me special insight into how and why you have been struggling to master your ADHD Superpowers! I respect your needs and tailor sessions to suit your time and finances - and I am committed to providing you with meaningful therapy on your very first session!
I am passionate about helping you become psychologically flexible. No, I won't try to fix you, because you're not broken! I won't try to challenge your thoughts or feelings, because they are valid! I will help you understand what motivates you and I will teach you how to live a life that is meaningful - to you! My lived experience with ADHD gives me special insight into how and why you have been struggling to master your ADHD Superpowers! I respect your needs and tailor sessions to suit your time and finances - and I am committed to providing you with meaningful therapy on your very first session!
(08) 6118 6433 View (08) 6118 6433
Photo of Oliver Aguilar, MA, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Oliver Aguilar
Psychotherapist, MA, PACFA
Verified Verified
2 Endorsed
East Perth, WA 6004
The way I work is interactive, collaborative, intuitive, and respectful. I work analytically with my clients by investigating how early childhood experiences have shaped current thinking and behaviours. We explore the links between unconscious and conscious thoughts, symbolism, beliefs, emotions, desires, and how they impact daily life. The work lies within the unconscious to conscious links, how one relates to their world, allowing unspoken languages of the body to express deeply felt emotions and thought patterns. As your ‘story’ unfolds, together we work to find meanings, diverse perspectives, and solutions to your concerns.
The way I work is interactive, collaborative, intuitive, and respectful. I work analytically with my clients by investigating how early childhood experiences have shaped current thinking and behaviours. We explore the links between unconscious and conscious thoughts, symbolism, beliefs, emotions, desires, and how they impact daily life. The work lies within the unconscious to conscious links, how one relates to their world, allowing unspoken languages of the body to express deeply felt emotions and thought patterns. As your ‘story’ unfolds, together we work to find meanings, diverse perspectives, and solutions to your concerns.
(08) 7701 9507 View (08) 7701 9507

More Therapists Nearby

Photo of Emily Radford, PsyBA General, Psychologist
Emily Radford
Psychologist, PsyBA General
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
Hiya! My name is Emily, and my pronouns are they/them. I am a queer, neurodivergent, and non-binary Registered Psychologist. I work with individuals who are 18 years of age or older. My priority is to cultivate a safe, inclusive, and accessible environment. I work with clients with a broad array of presentations, including ADHD, Autism, gender dysphoria, chronic illness/pain/fatigue, interpersonal conflict, complex trauma, anxiety, depression, burnout, PDA, and more. I prioritise the therapeutic relationship and ensure I tailor my therapeutic approach to meet your individual needs and goals (irrespective of neurotypical standards).
Hiya! My name is Emily, and my pronouns are they/them. I am a queer, neurodivergent, and non-binary Registered Psychologist. I work with individuals who are 18 years of age or older. My priority is to cultivate a safe, inclusive, and accessible environment. I work with clients with a broad array of presentations, including ADHD, Autism, gender dysphoria, chronic illness/pain/fatigue, interpersonal conflict, complex trauma, anxiety, depression, burnout, PDA, and more. I prioritise the therapeutic relationship and ensure I tailor my therapeutic approach to meet your individual needs and goals (irrespective of neurotypical standards).
View
Photo of Davina Morley, MPsych, PsyBA Endorsed, Psychologist
Davina Morley
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA Endorsed
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
I am a queer relationship therapist and registered psychologist, working with LGBTIQA+ people (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer, questioning, asexual, and including pansexual, non-binary, and people of diverse sexuality, gender and bodies who use other words to describe themselves or do not label their sexuality or gender). I work with relationships and couples of all sexualities, genders, bodies, and non-monogamous and polyamorous structures including relationship anarchy. I understand barriers to accessing services that marginalised people face, and I try to be as safe as possible for you in therapy.
I am a queer relationship therapist and registered psychologist, working with LGBTIQA+ people (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer, questioning, asexual, and including pansexual, non-binary, and people of diverse sexuality, gender and bodies who use other words to describe themselves or do not label their sexuality or gender). I work with relationships and couples of all sexualities, genders, bodies, and non-monogamous and polyamorous structures including relationship anarchy. I understand barriers to accessing services that marginalised people face, and I try to be as safe as possible for you in therapy.
(03) 8413 7355 View (03) 8413 7355
Photo of Diana Lalor, PsyBA General, Psychologist
Diana Lalor
Psychologist, PsyBA General
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000
Diana's breadth of experience includes relationship and couples counselling, counselling for depression and anxiety, trauma counselling, and psychological services and counselling for transgender children and adults.
Diana is a Psychologist trained in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, an accredited Gestalt Therapist, experienced Relationship Counsellor and has been practising in Perth, Western Australia since 1990. She is the Principal Psychologist and Proprietor of Cottesloe Counselling Centre.
Diana's breadth of experience includes relationship and couples counselling, counselling for depression and anxiety, trauma counselling, and psychological services and counselling for transgender children and adults.
Diana is a Psychologist trained in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, an accredited Gestalt Therapist, experienced Relationship Counsellor and has been practising in Perth, Western Australia since 1990. She is the Principal Psychologist and Proprietor of Cottesloe Counselling Centre.
(08) 9551 7926 View (08) 9551 7926
Photo of Rae Sabine - Creating Wellbeing Melbourne, MA, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Creating Wellbeing Melbourne
Psychotherapist, MA, PACFA
Verified Verified
5 Endorsed
Perth, WA 6000
***PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA EMAIL*** Hi, I'm Rae (they/them) and I'm a trans non-binary and multiple neurodivergent registered supervisor (I avoids using the term ‘clinical’ to describe the supervision work I do, as I prefer to use non-clinical language in my approaches), arts therapist, and psychotherapist with a lived experience of chronic illness. I have white Anglophone privilege and settler privilege. I experience marginalisation due to living in cisgenderist, binary, neurotypical-centred society. I am very passionate about disability rights, the LGBTQIA+ community and mental health. I am vegan and love animals.
***PLEASE CONTACT ME VIA EMAIL*** Hi, I'm Rae (they/them) and I'm a trans non-binary and multiple neurodivergent registered supervisor (I avoids using the term ‘clinical’ to describe the supervision work I do, as I prefer to use non-clinical language in my approaches), arts therapist, and psychotherapist with a lived experience of chronic illness. I have white Anglophone privilege and settler privilege. I experience marginalisation due to living in cisgenderist, binary, neurotypical-centred society. I am very passionate about disability rights, the LGBTQIA+ community and mental health. I am vegan and love animals.
(03) 7302 2943 View (03) 7302 2943
Photo of Ari Heart - Gender Therapy & Coaching, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Gender Therapy & Coaching
Psychotherapist, PACFA
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
My name is Ari Heart. I am a trans non-binary person, a psychotherapist, coach and educator in all things trans wellbeing. I help trans and nonbinary people experience greater clarity, ease and relief, without months or years of ongoing talk therapy. If you are struggling with your identity, dysphoria, your relationship with your body, decisions about transition/gender affirmation, how you can navigate other people, coming out, finding your authentic expression, or any other gender-based challenge, you do not have to be alone with it. We can work together to accelerate your movement towards a meaningful, enjoyable trans life.
My name is Ari Heart. I am a trans non-binary person, a psychotherapist, coach and educator in all things trans wellbeing. I help trans and nonbinary people experience greater clarity, ease and relief, without months or years of ongoing talk therapy. If you are struggling with your identity, dysphoria, your relationship with your body, decisions about transition/gender affirmation, how you can navigate other people, coming out, finding your authentic expression, or any other gender-based challenge, you do not have to be alone with it. We can work together to accelerate your movement towards a meaningful, enjoyable trans life.
(03) 7003 2710 View (03) 7003 2710
Photo of Jess Hodges, MA, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Jess Hodges
Psychotherapist, MA, PACFA
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
Waitlist for new clients
Do you feel overwhelmed, exhausted or struggling with motivation? Do you have sensitivities that leave you feeling judged by others, or misunderstood? Do you experience stuck patterns of behaviour that effect your ability to feel satisfaction in life and in relationships? Do you feel pressure to conform to societal norms and expectations, which leaves you feeling "othered" and isolated? I see you! You are not alone and you don't have to work this out by yourself. Together we can explore your lived experience and the many ways it impacts your sense of self, worthiness and belonging.
Do you feel overwhelmed, exhausted or struggling with motivation? Do you have sensitivities that leave you feeling judged by others, or misunderstood? Do you experience stuck patterns of behaviour that effect your ability to feel satisfaction in life and in relationships? Do you feel pressure to conform to societal norms and expectations, which leaves you feeling "othered" and isolated? I see you! You are not alone and you don't have to work this out by yourself. Together we can explore your lived experience and the many ways it impacts your sense of self, worthiness and belonging.
0408 486 282 View 0408 486 282
Photo of Larz Lauer, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Larz Lauer
Psychotherapist, PACFA
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Perth, WA 6000
As a holistic, relational, gestalt therapist, my approach is grounded in the present moment, non-pathologising, inclusive and trauma-informed. Through the lens of anti-oppressive practice, I prioritise creating a therapeutic space where all the parts of you are considered, held and deeply respected. In sessions, your healing, growth, and increasing self-awareness is what we co-create in this space. I can support you in connecting with your inner experiences to empower you to make meaningful changes in your life and make deeper connections to yourself, others, and the wider environment.
As a holistic, relational, gestalt therapist, my approach is grounded in the present moment, non-pathologising, inclusive and trauma-informed. Through the lens of anti-oppressive practice, I prioritise creating a therapeutic space where all the parts of you are considered, held and deeply respected. In sessions, your healing, growth, and increasing self-awareness is what we co-create in this space. I can support you in connecting with your inner experiences to empower you to make meaningful changes in your life and make deeper connections to yourself, others, and the wider environment.
(07) 2100 4783 View (07) 2100 4783
Photo of Dr Nicola Flood, PhD, PsyBA General, Psychologist
Dr Nicola Flood
Psychologist, PhD, PsyBA General
Verified Verified
East Victoria Park, WA 6101
Nicola is endorsed as a Clinical Psychologist with AHPRA and has worked with individuals in inpatient, outpatient, and community settings both in the public and private sectors. Nicola is a warm, compassionate, and dedicated clinician who uses a person-centred approach in which treatment is collaboratively tailored to the individual. Nicola has also had extensive experience working with individuals who have experienced trauma and as such, uses a trauma-informed approach to create a supportive, non-judgemental, and safe environment.
Nicola is endorsed as a Clinical Psychologist with AHPRA and has worked with individuals in inpatient, outpatient, and community settings both in the public and private sectors. Nicola is a warm, compassionate, and dedicated clinician who uses a person-centred approach in which treatment is collaboratively tailored to the individual. Nicola has also had extensive experience working with individuals who have experienced trauma and as such, uses a trauma-informed approach to create a supportive, non-judgemental, and safe environment.
(08) 6490 9058 View (08) 6490 9058
Photo of Lexie Ashwell-Jones - The Kink Counsellor (Lexie Ashwell-Jones), MC, ACA-L2, Counsellor
The Kink Counsellor (Lexie Ashwell-Jones)
Counsellor, MC, ACA-L2
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
Life is messy and imperfect. Sexuality and identity is a lifelong journey. So many of us are limited in our exploration due to shame, stigma, or lack of sexuality education. I believe in a sex-positive approach which acknowledges and celebrates the diversity of human sexuality, identity and expression. When we are informed, empowered and validated, we live happier and more authentic lives.
Life is messy and imperfect. Sexuality and identity is a lifelong journey. So many of us are limited in our exploration due to shame, stigma, or lack of sexuality education. I believe in a sex-positive approach which acknowledges and celebrates the diversity of human sexuality, identity and expression. When we are informed, empowered and validated, we live happier and more authentic lives.
(02) 9100 0765 View (02) 9100 0765
Photo of David James Parrick - WA Psychology and Wellness, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych, Psychologist
WA Psychology and Wellness
Psychologist, MPsych, PsyBA - Clin. Psych
Verified Verified
Victoria Park, WA 6100
Waitlist for new clients
My practice is LGBTQI+ affirmative. I have a special interest in working with gender identity and I am able to support adolescents & adults exploring their preferred gender identification, including assisting with the transition process. I see people with a wide range of issues including depression, anxiety (phobias, social and generalised anxiety), trauma, worry and rumination, men’s health (including sexual health) and relationship difficulties (either individually or as part of couples therapy). Additionally, I work with adolescents and young adults with conduct issues who are in, or at risk of, contact with the justice system.
My practice is LGBTQI+ affirmative. I have a special interest in working with gender identity and I am able to support adolescents & adults exploring their preferred gender identification, including assisting with the transition process. I see people with a wide range of issues including depression, anxiety (phobias, social and generalised anxiety), trauma, worry and rumination, men’s health (including sexual health) and relationship difficulties (either individually or as part of couples therapy). Additionally, I work with adolescents and young adults with conduct issues who are in, or at risk of, contact with the justice system.
(08) 7078 7028 View (08) 7078 7028
Photo of Jesse Muller - Jesse Muller - Counselling and Psychotherapy, ACA-L1, Counsellor
Jesse Muller - Counselling and Psychotherapy
Counsellor, ACA-L1
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000
Are you recovering from trauma, oppression or psychological abuse? Do you need support to heal and take charge of your life, creating wellbeing and freedom. If you are living with distress, anxiety, co-dependency or something is in the way of you enjoying and living your life, reach out and we can work together to support you to regain connection with yourself to start/continue towards creating the life you want. I also work with parents and the impacts of trauma on their experience as a parent and healing parent child dynamics. Trans and gender diverse people are welcome along with all people from LGBTIQA+ communities.
Are you recovering from trauma, oppression or psychological abuse? Do you need support to heal and take charge of your life, creating wellbeing and freedom. If you are living with distress, anxiety, co-dependency or something is in the way of you enjoying and living your life, reach out and we can work together to support you to regain connection with yourself to start/continue towards creating the life you want. I also work with parents and the impacts of trauma on their experience as a parent and healing parent child dynamics. Trans and gender diverse people are welcome along with all people from LGBTIQA+ communities.
(08) 7100 9046 View (08) 7100 9046
Photo of Eden Brown - Brown Eden Psychotherapy, MA, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Brown Eden Psychotherapy
Psychotherapist, MA, PACFA
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000
Waitlist for new clients
I offer confidential, non-judgemental, culturally appropriate and trauma informed psychotherapy and counselling to individuals, couples and families. I am a Relational Gestalt Psychotherapist. I've worked in various roles including: counsellor, social worker, youth worker and community development worker in a number of fields including: Community Health, LGBTQIA+ Mental Health, Aboriginal Community Controlled Organisations, Men’s Family Violence Counselling, Trauma & Sexual Assault counselling, Women’s Organisations, Youth Organisations, International and Community Development Projects and Indigenous Non-Government Organisations.
I offer confidential, non-judgemental, culturally appropriate and trauma informed psychotherapy and counselling to individuals, couples and families. I am a Relational Gestalt Psychotherapist. I've worked in various roles including: counsellor, social worker, youth worker and community development worker in a number of fields including: Community Health, LGBTQIA+ Mental Health, Aboriginal Community Controlled Organisations, Men’s Family Violence Counselling, Trauma & Sexual Assault counselling, Women’s Organisations, Youth Organisations, International and Community Development Projects and Indigenous Non-Government Organisations.
(03) 7003 2602 View (03) 7003 2602
Photo of Tamara Caswell - MoonGrove Counselling - Tamara , PACFA, Counsellor
MoonGrove Counselling - Tamara
Counsellor, PACFA
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
We are all constantly evolving and this can present difficult challenges, often impacted by family, social and cultural conditioning, religious and gender-based beliefs, roles, and biases. You might want to challenge this conditioning and these constraints. Understanding this within ourself, our relationships, and our families can be complex. You might realise that your sexual, relationship, and gender identities and preferences may be different from societal expectations, so you may struggle internally to accept who you are and your ability to live authentically. We need safe and appropriate support to navigate these changes.
We are all constantly evolving and this can present difficult challenges, often impacted by family, social and cultural conditioning, religious and gender-based beliefs, roles, and biases. You might want to challenge this conditioning and these constraints. Understanding this within ourself, our relationships, and our families can be complex. You might realise that your sexual, relationship, and gender identities and preferences may be different from societal expectations, so you may struggle internally to accept who you are and your ability to live authentically. We need safe and appropriate support to navigate these changes.
(03) 7302 8903 View (03) 7302 8903
Photo of Dr Coby Liew, PsychD, AMHSW, Clinical Social Work/Therapist
Dr Coby Liew
Clinical Social Work/Therapist, PsychD, AMHSW
Verified Verified
1 Endorsed
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
Welcome to my profile! I've dedicated my life to helping people of all ages and backgrounds navigate their way through life's challenges, and I do so with compassion, care, and empathy. I was born in Borneo, identify as gay, and have experience living in different countries and cultures. I offer more than ten years of clinical experience in counselling and psychotherapy, specialising in loss and grief, gender and sexuality, complex trauma and abuse, attachment issues, ASD, ADHD, personality disorders, relationship and intimacy issues, anger management, family conflicts, workplace bullying, and intercultural adjustment issues.
Welcome to my profile! I've dedicated my life to helping people of all ages and backgrounds navigate their way through life's challenges, and I do so with compassion, care, and empathy. I was born in Borneo, identify as gay, and have experience living in different countries and cultures. I offer more than ten years of clinical experience in counselling and psychotherapy, specialising in loss and grief, gender and sexuality, complex trauma and abuse, attachment issues, ASD, ADHD, personality disorders, relationship and intimacy issues, anger management, family conflicts, workplace bullying, and intercultural adjustment issues.
(03) 8595 5297 View (03) 8595 5297
Photo of Andrew Macdonald, PACFA, Psychotherapist
Andrew Macdonald
Psychotherapist, PACFA
Verified Verified
Perth, WA 6000  (Online Only)
Hi, I'm Andrew and thanks for stopping by. With over 15 years counselling experience, I am a registered clinical psychotherapist with the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia. My experience covers working with clients from all walks of life in helping them make sense of the things that are getting in the way. My approach is supportive and grounded in an evidenced based integrative model. Client's have said that in working with me they feel cared for, safe and able to talk about things that are challenging them. I provide health insurance rebates for most providers.
Hi, I'm Andrew and thanks for stopping by. With over 15 years counselling experience, I am a registered clinical psychotherapist with the Psychotherapy and Counselling Federation of Australia. My experience covers working with clients from all walks of life in helping them make sense of the things that are getting in the way. My approach is supportive and grounded in an evidenced based integrative model. Client's have said that in working with me they feel cared for, safe and able to talk about things that are challenging them. I provide health insurance rebates for most providers.
(03) 7003 2204 View (03) 7003 2204

See more therapy options for East Perth

Transgender Counsellors

As a gender-diverse individual, why might I want to see a therapist who is also gender diverse?

A trans or gender-diverse client may want to see a therapist who is also trans or gender diverse because the client may feel safer sharing their experiences and more confident that the therapist will understand, validate, and support them. But trans or gender-diverse clients can also benefit from therapy with cisgender therapists; this is a personal decision based on the connection between the client and the therapist, and if that connection is strong, therapy will be successful.

What if I cannot find a therapist who shares my gender identity?

Therapy can still be effective if a therapist does not share a client’s gender identity; a large body of research indicates that the most important factor in successful therapy is the therapeutic alliance. A therapist can also be interviewed for sensitivity and competence on gender identity and expression to ensure they possess appropriate knowledge and skills. Many therapists have excellent training and extensive experience working with gender-diverse clients, and that expertise can be invaluable despite a therapist not sharing the same firsthand experiences.

How can I recognise a good therapist for working with gender-diverse clients?

An experienced therapist should be able to help clients explore their gender identity and expression, alleviate discomfort related to their gender identity, treat mental health challenges and trauma, address existing relationships and communication with family members and loved ones, and determine the next steps pertaining to nonmedical or medical gender-affirming interventions. To recognise a good therapist, clients can ask about these topics and explore their comfort and connection with the clinician.

How might I inquire about a therapist’s experience working with transgender clients?

Clients should feel comfortable asking therapists directly about their experience working with transgender or gender-diverse clientele. For example, clients may ask about the therapist’s training and education with regard to gender identity, how many trans clients they’ve worked with in the past, and what sorts of matters were discussed. You may wish to inquire how a therapist specifically supports the needs of transgender clients or clients questioning their gender identity. A good clinician who is nonetheless not the right fit for you is often happy to make referrals to others based on the concerns you articulate in a preliminary conversation.